Let's talk about II: "Duh? WINNING!"

[OrochiLeonaUK]

I really enjoyed Vecta's thread on fighting communities, everyone's thoughts and opinions were great and interesting to read, so I'm starting this thread in the hopes you will all come and have your say... It's a long post but please bear with me..okays?

Video Game Victory

I was lucky enough to grow up in the arcade era during a time when fighters where at an all time high, with most of the classic scrappers we all know and love hitting the streets around the same time my balls dropped early 90's. I consider myself a very good gamer but, after 25 years of playing, I am still far from "Excellent" and, at fighters, not even anywhere close to "Pro"
The arcade scene is dead today, but fear not, bloodthristy joystick jockeys, ONl1E gaMinG iz WheRR itz @t.

The other night, I fought this guy at Mortal Kombat, he had a really ropey looking win/loss rate, but he challenged me, I beat him 9-0, but he kept rematching, everytime picking a different character and pushing forward. The same night, I fought some guy in King of the hill who was on a 16 win streak. I beat him, he rage quit just before my win and and then kicked everyone out the room.
It just got me thinking that clearly the guy on the losing streak just seemed to want to fight and explore the game, whereas the guy on the winning streak clearly took my victory very personally indeed, like a personal affront to him, his mother and that motherf*cker Ermac.

So -What thoughts do you have on "winning" at games? particulary beating human opposition?
-Do you find that you spend countless hours of practicing combos of games, old or new, out of a love of the game, or more that it fuels your want (and for some a NEED) to defeat total strangers? Is it a bit of both? Do you push to better yourself constantly or are you content where you are?
-How important is your online record to you? Would you shy away from fights you feel you have no chance of winning?
-Do you feel different about winning in different games? Can you accept many losses in Tekken but rage at a single loss in Street Fighter?
-Has your inability to master a game hurt your love of the game, a character or their franchise? I remember a HORDE of people returning SFIV to my shop when it was originally released because they "weren't winning"
-Have gamers become a nation of excuse merchants? Do we spend more time complaining that the character that beat us "needs nerfing" or that the player was "spamming too much" or are these legitimatly important points?

-What about victory in the big picture of gaming? Has coming out on top became seemingly more or less important in modern day gaming than you remember it in the past?
-As you get older do you find you care less than you did when you were a kid?
-Do games with an abundance of game breaking cheats, for example COD, nullify those games for anything more than a quick laugh?
-Do tournaments legitimise "winning games" as an actual life achievement?
-Or, when all is said and done, are the real "winners" the people who don't give a crap about the outcome, but just play, well... just because? Does that attitude remove a pressure of excellence and leave it open for more casual fun? or is that an attitude of someone who doesn't know how to compete?

I'm just listing loads of generic ideas. There are a whole abundance of questions, answers and opinions that can spin out of this topic and I'd really like to hear yours gorgeous  
It's a pretty open subject with a ton of variables, so just go with what ya think. Don't leave me hangin'....

[hybridial]

Well, nice thread OLUK, and I'm gonna be blunt. Some people aren't gonna like what I have to say I imagine but that's just gonna be tough, because I'm going to say it anyways, and take your points one at a time.

-Do you find that you spend countless hours of practicing combos of games, old or new, out of a love of the game, or more that it fuels your want (and for some a NEED) to defeat total strangers? Is it a bit of both? Do you push to better yourself constantly or are you content where you are?

First of all, no, I don't practice. At least not what most people see as practicing, going into the training modes, learning combos. I find that reduces playing the game to rehearsing pushing a bunch of buttons and it heavilly kills the abstract relationship one has with the game contextually. I want to think "okay, I can acid ball this guy up, strike him with a good combination of blows and finish him with a slide" than "I have to press F,F, 1, 3, 4, 2, 674, 384 blagh blagh blagh." it's not really a game then to me. I don't care much about winning, just having fun, as my next statements will make clear.

-How important is your online record to you? Would you shy away from fights you feel you have no chance of winning?

Not particularly important, and I'll play anyone who at least plays the game with some class. My experience on GGPO against some players was pretty awful as a lot of them would play one match, beat me, then decide I'm not worth their time and disconnect. All I want to do is play, I don't care too much if I win, but how can I have fun if people won't play a few rounds as opposed to just getting their win and moving on?

-Do you feel different about winning in different games? Can you accept many losses in Tekken but rage at a single loss in Street Fighter?

I'd say there is a slight difference if I've invested more time in the game but it's not huge.

-Has your inability to master a game hurt your love of the game, a character or their franchise? I remember a HORDE of people returning SFIV to my shop when it was originally released because they "weren't winning"

No, if I love a fighter, I love a fighter. I like these games for numerous reasons, and there's a reason I love SNK's fighters, Mortal Kombat and (at least now) Tekken, dislike SFIV and despise Blazblue, Arcana Heart etc. It stems from the artistic approaches these games take. Not just visually, but the general ethos of the gameplay as well. Character design plays such a huge role in things for me though, as I said above, I want in a way to fight with a character, think like that character and identify with them. This is hard to do when the designs are fucking ridiculous, bland or just plain bad. I can take a little ridiculous though else it'd be hard to stomach Tekken

-Have gamers become a nation of excuse merchants? Do we spend more time complaining that the character that beat us "needs nerfing" or that the player was "spamming too much" or are these legitimatly important points?

One could say that;s just human nature, if someone wants to win but loses, they'll blame everything but themselves. All I think is that games companies do need to make well balanced games but that's just a practical solution that wouldn't exactly change the fact there are many people who just can't take a loss.

-What about victory in the big picture of gaming? Has coming out on top became seemingly more or less important in modern day gaming than you remember it in the past?

Online and with the fighting genre it really seems to have gone in that direction and I think that has ruined a lot of the fun of playing these games. It's happened with a lot of other genres to, I'd say it's one of the principle occurrences since online gaming became popular. Personally I think it's one of the worst things that's happened to gaming.

-As you get older do you find you care less than you did when you were a kid?

I never cared that much for it, but I had more fun as a kid because of the focus on local multiplayer back on the older consoles.

-Do games with an abundance of game breaking cheats, for example COD, nullify those games for anything more than a quick laugh?

That's all games should be about if you ask me, whether they are well balanced or not.

-Do tournaments legitimise "winning games" as an actual life achievement?

God no. I absolutely do not recognise anyone winning these gaming tournaments as doing anything worth admiring, let alone making money from it. But eh, I'd say the same for certain sports, at least not the kind of money involved with them.

-Or, when all is said and done, are the real "winners" the people who don't give a crap about the outcome, but just play, well... just because? Does that attitude remove a pressure of excellence and leave it open for more casual fun? or is that an attitude of someone who doesn't know how to compete?

I'd like to think most people who play fighters play them to have fun, and that is the onus of why they play games. Doing so is essentially healthy and saves competitive videogames from becoming a farce of whining and game mechanic manipulation. This is the only attitude I really respect, the proper way to approach things and thus anyone who doesn't believe that are not gonna particularly like me. But that's how things are to me. If I want to play a game for more than just fun, what I want more than just fun is either a great story, or feeling greatly involved and immersed in a role and thats obviously what single player games are for.

[Eddie]

Real nice thread, incoming two cents.

-Do you find that you spend countless hours of practicing combos of games, old or new, out of a love of the game, or more that it fuels your want (and for some a NEED) to defeat total strangers? Is it a bit of both? Do you push to better yourself constantly or are you content where you are?

Really a bit of both, the games I really like I usually practice until I feel like I got the hang of it then try it out against friend's or, rarely, against strangers online, I try not to take too far, turning it into an obsession just doesn't seem like a good thing to do, for me it's kinda the point where you stop having fun and turning into a prick who bitches and moans about everything, which btw in Brazilian servers of FPS there's just TOO many of those kind of guys.

-How important is your online record to you? Would you shy away from fights you feel you have no chance of winning?

Well, when I challenge someone i'd at least think I have a chance, if I see i'm not on the same level I try to pick up a few tricks even talk to however i'm playing. If the person is a dick then I stop playing the moment it starts to bother me, I don't really care about the win/loss records since you can't win them all.

-Do you feel different about winning in different games? Can you accept many losses in Tekken but rage at a single loss in Street Fighter?

Yes and no, it depends on how skilled I am at the game.

-Has your inability to master a game hurt your love of the game, a character or their franchise? I remember a HORDE of people returning SFIV to my shop when it was originally released because they "weren't winning"

Kinda, it is disheartening to see the practice ain't paying off, but I won't stop liking the game or whatever just because I wasn't winning.

-Have gamers become a nation of excuse merchants? Do we spend more time complaining that the character that beat us "needs nerfing" or that the player was "spamming too much" or are these legitimatly important points?

Oh Fuck YES, and that goes all the way back to the golden days of the arcade too. And it really depends on some games if the person does know how the game works and stuff, saying that X character needs a nerf can be justified, heck we do that all the time here. But for people to bitch at tournaments that the controls are crap is because the person is a dumbass to not bring his own controller.

-What about victory in the big picture of gaming? Has coming out on top became seemingly more or less important in modern day gaming than you remember it in the past?

Yes and no, for me it's about those who can play and be cool about whatever he wins or losses and sore losers who thinks he/she's is the shit and the moment this person loses the person does it all, curses, hits thing and whatnot and keeps on playing only to lose again and again and again instead of being a little more reasonable and just quit for the time being.

-As you get older do you find you care less than you did when you were a kid?

I deftly care less about whinny bitches, when I play online.

-Do games with an abundance of game breaking cheats, for example COD, nullify those games for anything more than a quick laugh?

Not sure I don't play so much CoD, but I do get a few laughs at Left 4 dead 2 which some of the bugs you can pull on survival.

-Do tournaments legitimise "winning games" as an actual life achievement?

A bit I guess, but for me it's a great way to see and play against some of the better players in the region, too bad there aren't many tourneys around here.

-Or, when all is said and done, are the real "winners" the people who don't give a crap about the outcome, but just play, well... just because? Does that attitude remove a pressure of excellence and leave it open for more casual fun? or is that an attitude of someone who doesn't know how to compete?

Call the guy a winner, not really, but it's deftly a more respectable player, the kind that is welcome to play against at any time. Since by the end of the day you can all agree you had fun while playing regardless of the win/loss ratio.

[Don Vecta]

later i put my two cents. At school.

EDIT: Okay, let's encyclopedia Brown this bitch.

-Do you find that you spend countless hours of practicing combos of games, old or new, out of a love of the game, or more that it fuels your want (and for some a NEED) to defeat total strangers? Is it a bit of both? Do you push to better yourself constantly or are you content where you are?

Perhaps when I had this strong competitive idea in fighting games. Right now I go more into the technical stuff of the games, seeing what I can find about properties, combos, bugs, strategies for others who play more seriously than I do. I mean, I do play alright, but I guess mostly to help the community and to enjoy myself rather than to get the number one spot. That's too time, mind and heart consuming and now I'have other priorities in life than getting bitter on that.

-How important is your online record to you? Would you shy away from fights you feel you have no chance of winning?

If I gave a fuck about online gaming probly i'd care about my win/loss ratio. When I play Tekken or SSFIV I like getting some hard matches, of course, even though I see fighting games now from another perspective, I still like to learn more during the process but I don't take it as a painstalking duty anymore.

-Do you feel different about winning in different games? Can you accept many losses in Tekken but rage at a single loss in Street Fighter?

Winning is winning, losing is losing. Obviously the game you are putting more significance you'd care more. But if I'm losing too much means I have to either sharpen up skills or just move on to another game.

-Has your inability to master a game hurt your love of the game, a character or their franchise? I remember a HORDE of people returning SFIV to my shop when it was originally released because they "weren't winning"

Well, not really, as I said, I like digging into the games I like. SSFIV was a lukewarm thing for me, I play it cuz most of my friends were playing it and I felt a nostalgia rush for a while... but game doesn't turn me on much like Tekken does, for example. I've been losing many times against hardcore players here in China, Japan and Hong Kong and still played the game.

-Have gamers become a nation of excuse merchants? Do we spend more time complaining that the character that beat us "needs nerfing" or that the player was "spamming too much" or are these legitimatly important points?

People can bitch because they have mouth and they have the anonymity of the internet. Bitching and trolling it's a must nowadays because they feel safe in doing so. I guess sometimes people should learn to see the difference from a broken characters and one being a fucking bad player. Hell, I have laughed when some idiot said Zafina was broken when he was beaten up repeatedly by her... and Zafina is bottom tier in Tekken.

-What about victory in the big picture of gaming? Has coming out on top became seemingly more or less important in modern day gaming than you remember it in the past?

Well, hard question to answer since we now we live in the era of "casuals", online gaming, watered down games and lack of arcades. Back in the arcade era or offline head to head console competition you'd go serious business in a match.

But sadly, we also live in the internet era with youtube and facebook where it's easy to become a PRO-gaming celebrity and even getting sponsorships and other crap. I guess back in the day winning was a thing of more gaming and respect rather than the drama circus it has become recently.

-As you get older do you find you care less than you did when you were a kid?

If you mean, playing competitively, yeah. I still keep my "serious business" side in delivering stuff for the community in combos, strats or curious stuff we find.

-Do games with an abundance of game breaking cheats, for example COD, nullify those games for anything more than a quick laugh?

lol, who care about those shitty games? Certainly I don't.

-Do tournaments legitimise "winning games" as an actual life achievement?

Well, some people just keep forgetting that, in the end, IT'S JUST A GAME. It's as legitimate as making a tournament of the longest burp or the further cumshot. Yeah, it's cool to win, it's cool to get a trophy and feels good to get a victory. But feeling yourself superior to the rest and looking down at others or measuring their value in life with their ability to win at games sounds kinda pathetic to me.

-Or, when all is said and done, are the real "winners" the people who don't give a crap about the outcome, but just play, well... just because? Does that attitude remove a pressure of excellence and leave it open for more casual fun? or is that an attitude of someone who doesn't know how to compete?

Well, when all is said and done, the only winners here are the expectators cuz they enjoy watching the battles, either live or in youtube.

[Ryth]

Hell winning is an achievement. Some people can't even win games.

[Sera]

I won't answer question by question, however here is my opinion on this interesting subject.

First of all, I've always thought that playing videogames should be for fun above all. It's true, winning is winning even though you are playing for fun (and if you lose often it's probably not fun anymore), but there should be a limit on how seriously games and victories/defeats are taken. What I mean is that obsessing over and/or taking victories and defeats too personally is never a good thing.

Then, everyone has their own opinion on what is considered fun.
Some have fun when they win, which usually leads them to use only specific characters (mostly top tiers) regardless of their actual liking or being in tune with them.
Some others' opinion of fun is playing as their favourite characters (and maybe improve, but without making it a priority or a vital goal). It doesn't matter if they aren't very good at playing a specific game or as a specific character, what matters is mastering the character as better as possible according to one's skill and knowing as much as possible about him/her.

Well, I suppose that what I wrote more or less sums up my thoughts about the questions asked in the first post.